Well, Mozilla seems to be making some pretty questionable decisions, So I’m considering switching browsers for the third (Is it the third?) time. The thing is, I really like the way Firefox works, so I’ve been trying out the more famous Forks like Waterfox and Librewolf, although I’m going for Floorp. However, I’m wondering: is using a fork enough? I mean, they are Forks maintained by other people, but is there a chance that whatever Mozilla does to Firefox could affect those Forks? Should I jump to a totally different browser like Vivaldi?
Mozilla isn’t doing anything to Firefox. The Anonym purchase you linked to was literally to acquire a technology they developed which would, if implemented web-wide, end the dystopian nightmare of privacy invasion that is the current paradigm where a few dozen large companies track everything everyone does on the internet all the time. “Privacy preserving” isn’t just a buzzword in that article - privacy is actually preserved, and the companies involved (including Mozilla) learn nothing at all about you - not your name, not an “anonymous” identifier, not your behavior, nothing. Moreso, Anonym didn’t just create this technology, the entire company was purpose-founded to create this technology.
There’s a lot of misinformation floating around about Mozilla in particular at the moment. Very little of the animosity they receive is truly deserved once you dig past the narrative and find out what Mozilla’s actually up to, and why.
Continuous Mozilla hit pieces coming out….
I wonder which company motivated only by greed and the fact that their entire business model is “obliterating your privacy” is behind them
It’s the one that will “do no evil” - right?
Either you make a deal with the devil or use the company that made the deal so you don’t have to
Limited Liability Corporations exist for that very reason. I think a dude in France made a deal with a cave lion of some sort.
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Ads should be tailored to the content of the website they are on. Not to me in any way whatsoever.
Then you might be interested in this new technology being tested by Mozilla that aims to replace tracking cookies.
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Then we continue to use anti-tracking extensions and block all ads. This is not for you.
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Like it or not, ads are still the most popular way to pay for online content. I despise ads and I hope some kind of micro-payment solution catches on and offers an alternative, but until then there needs to be a way to reward people for their work, so ads and full-on subscriptions it is.
I don’t give a fuck about ads. And so should my browser.
But the people employed to create content on all the websites and YouTube channels you use regularly care quite a great deal about advertisement or they’d have to do something else for a living.
What, you don’t use free services online?
I have YouTube premium, so that part of my money is distributed to those creators. I also have subscriptions for news sites, podcasts and comics through Patreon and other services.
And to be clear: I don’t have a single problem with advertising — I have a huge problem with tracking me wherever I go online. When I’m on a site for Japanese language learning, show me ads for flights to Japan but stop tracking every website I visit.
I am paying for the services I use.
We sound similar. I’ve also been happy to pay for the services I use.
Although I hope you’ll agree that your second comment is a lot more moderated than the first :)
Then your browser will have no money to develop itself.
I am donating regularly to Firefox and Thunderbird. It’s a myth that software can only exist through ads and tracking.
Somehow I doubt you’re giving them as much as Google is. I despise ads but the current market realities mean that developing and maintaining a browser engine is not feasible without corporation-level resources.
Well, we‘ll never know as Mozilla has never tried to create user financed software since Netscape Navigatior Gold, IIRC.
We know because no one else is doing it.
Thanks for sharing this, hope ya continue 🤙
So instead of multiple providers tracking people all the time there will be a single company doing it, but it’s okay because I should trust them for what reason? Why wouldn’t tracking companies just use their own tracking on top of this new technology?
I didn’t read too much into it, but roughly speaking: Because the technology by design aggregates data immediately and drops any personal identifiers/ the unaggregated data in the process. Other companies can build whatever they want on that, but if done properly, it is impossible to reconstruct user-specific data points and profile the users that way.
This type of privacy-preserving aggregation technique is not new, it is fairly common for things like demographic data, where you want to know things like population density and incomes for some area, without just publishing an exact address with corresponding income for every person (as an example).
Edit: I think I missed your point a little bit. I am unsure, but it seemed that Anonymous is responsible for designing the framework, not doing any tracking (i.e. it wouldn’t necessarily be “put all trust into them collecting it”). Maybe rolling out that technology could be done in a way of blocking other tracking, or maybe it is intended as a basis for regulations to take up. Maybe someone else can give more informed input on that.
Using a Chromium-based browser when you’re bother by ad tech makes no sense whatsoever. Chromium is mostly developed by an ad company.
Remember folks, Chromium project is under Google’s control. They don’t care about web-standards. They just make their own standards since they have a 70% market share. The only notable Chromium fork which is worth mentioning is Ungoogled Chromium.
Vivaldi is a no go, it is proprietary software and also based in chromium. I’ve had similar thought process to yours and I am also using Floorp. Librewolf is great but too privacy hardened for the common lay user. These forks are cleaning the s*** out of firefox so no need to worry.
There is the source code but the Eula conflicts with it and the ui is only proprietary
Floorp and Zen are to Firefox what Vivaldi is to Chrome.
They provide a better UI and other features and strip out a lot of the bad stuff from the parent browser.
But fundamentally, Floorp and Zen and Vivaldi would not continue very long if the upstream decided to suddenly stop producing code, or altered their codebase in a significant manner. (This is what killed Palemoon and Seamonkey). This is always a threat.
So really, it’s a shit situation for browsers right now. Just choose a browser engine and then pick whatever UI you like the most on top of it.
I’m optimistic that Servo turns out to be the new Mozilla without repeating its mistakes. It should be the reference implementation browser upon which everything will rebase and it should remain non-profit. This was the original goal of open source Mozilla 25 years ago but then the techbro crew rolled in and started grifting.
(I’m also aware that WebKit still exists but Gnome Web is seemingly the only browser built with it and there are no extensions).
Today the Mozilla Corporation is just a place for the already wealthy to funnel money into their golden parachutes. It’s a grift. Personally I think it’s time to move on. Last week I pulled the plug, deleted my ~/.mozilla directory, so for the first time in a quarter century I don’t have anything Mozilla-related installed.
(I’m also aware that WebKit still exists but Gnome Web is seemingly the only browser built with it and there are no extensions).
The engine behind Safari? That is one of the most used browsers today, even moreso than Firefox?
Never heard of it.
Haha j/k, of course Safari too, good catch. Just a non-starter for me since I don’t use any of the platforms it’s on.
What are you using for your browser now?
–Gnome Web from Flathub
–Chromium in the Debian repo
–Chromium in the CalyxOS build
I would love to use Vivaldi and this is likely the best option left since it’s all the old Opera devs, but FFS just make it libre software guys. They seem to be financially stable with their team of like 30 people and run one of the largest Mastodon instances and have a great community.
Its got the best interface out of any of the Chrome reskins, especially with the left side tabs. They are trolling Mozilla right now with the whole, “we are the only browser not run by a marketing company or trying to build AI into the browser.”
But for me it being closed is a non-starter.
Like for fucks sake just make it libre software. Brave is open and literally nobody is building on top of it (morally bankrupt company though), what does Vivaldi have to lose by becoming libre software? They have nothing to lose and a competitive advantage to gain by becoming libre. There’s literally a community waiting to embrace you.
FWIW, I am kind of behind the curve. I used the Mozilla Suite from Milestone 18 all the way until it was SeaMonkey and didn’t switch until 2009 or so; then Firefox/Thunderbird until earlier this month. So if you have suggestions, I’m open.
Heard anything about Mullvad’s browser? You seem knowledgeable about the topic. I use their VPN already, still using Firefox for my browser though. I’m further behind the curve than you are, lol.
Servo is still worked on by linux foundation but I think it’s in experimental
Is there a privacy-focused browser that isn’t a Firefox or Chrome fork, and is fully open-source while also being copyleft (ie., mandating that forks of it will be also open-source etc.)?
Edit: or, would Firefox still be recommendable for privacy, or a fork thereof?
What email client do you use? I’ve been unhappy with Thunderbird but haven’t looked too hard at replacements yet
About ten years ago I was really hesitant on claws because at that time the interface looked ugly and extremely dated, but I gave it a shot and found that once I got past that, it works perfectly for me, it did everything I needed it to do, and with one exception it still does. The interface has not had a facelift in the decade since, so it is ten years more dated than it was back then, but I’ve had so few other complaints that the ugliness is now endearing.
The one issue is that my work uses office365, and for a while I thought it just wasn’t going to work with claws, but at some point I discovered a miraculous piece of FOSS called davmail (in the AUR for arch, if you use debian it’s in the main repositories) which allows you to access microsoft email through any client.
You weren’t kidding! It never doesn’t surprise me how long some of these projects are maintained
Geary from Flathub for all the day to day, manage my life stuff.
And Alpine for my personal email account from 25 years ago.
None of the forks are immune to Mozilla enshittifing the engine itself.
Browser engines are complicated beasts, the w3c specifications are thousands of pages and a proper engine would have to implement it all.
It’s the reason why not a single chromium fork is able to maintain manifest v2 in defiance of Google, because they would have to then maintain the engine themselves for the most part
There are two choices, Chrome/Chromium and Firefox. Firefox is the good one.
Using a Firefox clone saves you the hassle of manually remove all the stupid annoyances and user tracking Mozilla enables by default. But that’s basically it. Except a preconfigured setup and a new name and logo pretty much nothing is different.
Vivaldi is just Chromium with a non-free UI.
Can you give an example for this user tracking? I’m using firefox and I can’t think of anything that isn’t opt-in.
Nothing of this is opt-in:
By default, Mozilla collects […] information about the number of open tabs and windows or number of webpages visited. […] The data collected is associated with a randomly generated identifier that is unique to each Firefox client.
and
Firefox by default sends data about what features you use in Firefox to Leanplum, our mobile marketing vendor […] Leanplum tracks events such as when a user loads bookmarks, opens new tab, opens a pocket trending story, clears data, saves a password and login, takes a screenshot, downloads media, interacts with search URL or signs into a Firefox Account.
and
[Leanplum collects] certain information, which may include your browser’s Internet Protocol (IP) address, your browser type, the nature of the device from which you are visiting the Service[…], the identifier for any handheld or mobile device that you may be using, the Web site that you visited immediately prior to accessing any Web-based Service, the actions you take on our Service, […] We also may collect information regarding your interaction with e-mail messages, such as whether you opened, clicked on, or forwarded a message.
Thanks, I didn’t know that all this stuff is enabled by default. They don’t even care to inform their users when you install firefox…
You can’t even turn all of this off via UI, but need to use
about:configoruser.js(the later needs to be explicitly enabled viaabout:configfirst).Here’s my setup (except some specific settings based on my personal preferences that are not related to privacy).
// Do not leak URLs, IPs, etc. to external services user_pref('browser.safebrowsing.malware.enabled', false); user_pref('browser.safebrowsing.phishing.enabled', false); user_pref('network.trr.mode', 5); // DoH explicitly off user_pref('security.OCSP.enabled', 0); user_pref('browser.contentblocking.category', 'custom'); user_pref('app.shield.optoutstudies.enabled', false); user_pref('browser.urlbar.trending.featureGate', false); // Disable hidden extensions user_pref('extensions.pocket.enabled', false); user_pref('extensions.screenshots.disabled', true); // Remove new tab spam user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.showSponsoredTopSites', false); user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.section.topstories', false); user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.topsites', false); // Disable telemetry user_pref('datareporting.policy.dataSubmissionEnabled', false); user_pref('datareporting.healthreport.uploadEnabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.unified', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.server', 'data:,'); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.archive.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.newProfilePing.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.shutdownPingSender.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.updatePing.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.bhrPing.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.firstShutdownPing.enabled', false); user_pref('toolkit.telemetry.coverage.opt-out', true); user_pref('toolkit.coverage.opt-out', true); user_pref('toolkit.coverage.endpoint.base', ''); user_pref('browser.ping-centre.telemetry', false); user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.feeds.telemetry', false); user_pref('browser.newtabpage.activity-stream.telemetry', false); user_pref('breakpad.reportURL', ''); user_pref('browser.tabs.crashReporting.sendReport', false); user_pref('browser.crashReports.unsubmittedCheck.autoSubmit2', false); user_pref('app.shield.optoutstudies.enabled', false); user_pref('app.normandy.enabled', false); user_pref('app.normandy.api_url', ''); // Disable AI bullshit user_pref('browser.ml.enable', false); user_pref('browser.ml.chat.enabled', false); user_pref('browser.ml.chat.shortcuts', false); user_pref('browser.ml.chat.sidebar', false); user_pref('pdfjs.enableAltText', false); user_pref('pdfjs.enableUpdatedAddImage', false);
Floorp is just Firefox with some extensions, Vivaldi iirc is still chromium underneath etc etc
Your best option is just plain old Firefox configured the way you like it
There are a couple of new “from the ground up” browsers being developed at the moment but they aren’t ready from what I understand
I would like to add Librewolf, which is = Firefox - (Mozilla tracking/recommendations) + security hardening
Don’t expect it to behave like a normal browser. If you think some feature is disabled, it’s to avoid browser fingerprinting, not because it’s buggy. Read their FAQ before committing to the browser.
I never got on with librewolf, it just feels like one of those things that doesn’t really benefit me much and needlessly makes life harder
Use Librewolf if
- You do not approve of Mozilla’s direction with Firefox (I personally don’t have an issue)
- You don’t want to be fingerprinted by every websites
- Want to be very privacy conscious
If these are not your requirements, stick with Firefox. When you switch to Librewolf, you have to give up some QoL features (dark mode, adaptable screen size and more). Unfortunately, privacy in the modern web requires some sacrifice.
Mullvad or librewolf both have ublock, add noscript, shelter, privacy badger
That’s some clean internet but does require some skills using esp noscript
Pretty sure librewolf is only ublock origin + Arkane.js
Correct I am advising to add other extensitions for the people looking to deny even more useless api calls
Oh
Nothing questionable that Mozilla does can affect the forks, as long as the forks have enough manpower to sustain themselves. There are, in fact, a few examples of projects with questionable leadership getting abandoned by their userbase, as everyone migrates to the fork.
I think what you need to worry about is whether the fork you’re using has enough momentum and developer time that it’s going to stay alive. That’s a concern whether or not you have a concern that the central leadership is going to do something obscene.
Except if they start to enshittify the gecko engine itself, like Google did with Manifest V3. There isn’t a fork out there afaik that has the main power and expertise to maintain the complicated beast that is a browser engine
Huh?
Manifest v3 is not the rendering engine. The issue with manifest v3 is that the extension format is changing, so it’ll be more difficult to make ad blocker extensions work on Chrome. But a Chromium fork that is focused on privacy, of which there are several, and an ad blocker of which there are several, want to work together to make sure that their ad blocker is still working on the Chromium fork in question, it’s hard for me to see it being insurmountably difficult for them to collaborate on an API that will let it happen.
It’s not automatic, it can be difficult since they’re diverging from Chromium. But it is not on the same scale as trying to maintain a divergent browser engine.
Yea, I wasnt entirely clear, I brought up Manifest v3 as a “this is already complicated, and a browser engine is even more complicated” example
No Chromium fork maintains Mv2 anyways even though it is easier, and yes some do have their own builtin AdBlock and are able to function well that way. But I do not consider that ideal, one would be entirely dependent on their AdBlock implementation where as if a fork maintains Mv2 then you would be able to just change your extension if you don’t like something about it
I’ve tried many but waterfox has been my home since earlier this year. it comes configured out of the box with about the privacy settings I’d normally use, as well as my preferred userchrome built in.
So I’m considering switching browsers for the third (Is it the third?) time.
I don’t think switching browsers is a big deal. Obviously switching every day would be a burden and being forced to switch is annoying, but I don’t think the switch has to be a big all or nothing.
I do think Firefox or one of it’s derivatives are probably the best choice, but I’d say be flexible. I use Firefox for the majority of my mobile browsing, but Chime sneaks in depending on the task. On my laptop I use Chrome most of the time, but I’ve also got Firefox open for others. Perhaps that’s insane, but it works for me.
If you like Firefox, keep using Firefox. If you want to try a derivative, test them out. If they suck in 6 months, try something new. Try a bunch of new things.
At the end of the day the best option is the browser experience you like best.
JPEG XL support in Waterfox is nice.
Since the discussion has come up, let me ask this here.
I have been using Mull for sometime now. It’s all good but are there any forks of Firefox that are like chromium forks eg Cromite? Cromite is really good as it offers a ton of extra features too. Mull is great as far as privacy is concerned but I want few features as well. Especially if I could change the app logo and launch animation to stock Firefox that’d be great.
