• Ocelot@lemmies.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        31
        ·
        edit-2
        1 year ago

        Thats really the fundamental problem with free speech. Letting anyone say whatever their opinion means that “Everyone” includes morons and racists (who are obviously also morons)

        Not letting them have a platform means censorship. Letting them have a platform means hate speech. Tough nut to crack.

        • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          43
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Why is it censorship? They can still talk anywhere that accepts them, including public property; that they can’t do it in my backyard isn’t censoring them.

          • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            edit-2
            1 year ago

            The problem is you’re trying to redefine censorship to fit your narrative.

            censor

            verb

            censored; censoring ˈsen(t)-sə-riŋ ˈsen(t)s-riŋ

            transitive verb

            : to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

            Suppressing speech, regardless of where or how, is censorship.

            • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              1 year ago

              Interesting point. But are you willing to put your theory into practice?

              If you truly believe this, you must now end all your messages with:

              [email protected] said that free-speech maximalism is for fools but I disagreed because I am a fool.”

              If you don’t do this you are suppressing my speech and censoring me. And please don’t object on the grounds that the content is, perhaps, objectionable to some; remember, objectionable content is especially worthy of free speech protections.

              • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                I have no idea how you got this from what I said but no, that’s not how any of this works.

                • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Stop censoring me. I know you might find the content objectionable, but my freedom of speech demands you include that phrase in all your posts from this moment on. You aren’t going to suppress speech you don’t like or agree with, are you?

                  • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    1 year ago

                    Censorship doesn’t mean refusing to repeat other people’s speech. It means preventing others from speaking. Not sure what part of this you’re not getting. It is not a difficult concept.

            • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              42
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              It’s not a public forum, it’s a privately owned social media website/app…

              The owners can kick anyone out they want.

              Musk knew that, but apparently didn’t know why the old owners kicked them out, it’s because the vast majority of advertisers and users don’t want them their.

                • BrandoGil@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  7
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  It’s not. Platforming speech is endorsing speech. I mean, there’s nuance to how it should be handled if someone says something you can’t endorse, but that sentence is rule 1 of owning social media platforms.

            • TheMusicalFruit@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              35
              ·
              1 year ago

              It’s no more public than a shopping mall. The mall and Twitter are owned by a corporation or private entity so they can kick you out for any reason. They own the space, not the government. A public space is somewhere typically owned by the government like the library, town hall, roadway, or park. A common misconception is that anywhere people can freely enter is a public space, that’s not really how it works. If you think I’m wrong, go wave a Nazi flag and cause a disturbance at a mall and see how fast they kick you out.

            • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              26
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              In what sense is it public? It’s owned by X and no one else.

              People want to think it’s a public forum because a lot of people use it. But that doesn’t actually make it public.

        • spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.worksOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          19
          ·
          1 year ago

          Everyone can say what they want, but contrary to what the MAGA idiots think, they have no right to free speech on someone else’s platform. They are free to make their own platforms and we can see from the great success of Truth Social and Parler how that works out.

          What “free speech absolutist” Musk is trying to do is limit the speech of the ADL outside his platform, and to prevent them from shining a spotlight on him and the Nazi cockroaches he’s invited back to Twitter. He’s not going to convince advertisers that having their company’s name appear next to Nazi content is a good thing, and IMO his attempted bullying of the ADL is going to end up driving advertisers away instead of bringing them back. Good.

          • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            The problem is that people don’t realize there are different types of free speech.

            1 is the constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech by law.

            2 is the concept of free speech.

            Most people automatically assume you’re referring 1 when more often than not, unless someone is being prosecuted, they are referring to 2.

            • chaogomu@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              #2 doesn’t exist, because #2 is forcing others to host your speech and listen to your speech, and that’s just not how things work.

              You are free to say what you want, but everyone else is just as free to tell you to shut up and go away.

              • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                because #2 is forcing others to host your speech and listen to your speech, and that’s just not how things work.

                Uhhhh no? A concept doesn’t force people to do anything. Not sure what you’re on about.

                You are free to say what you want, but everyone else is just as free to tell you to shut up and go away.

                No one said they’re not.

    • athos77@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Remember, he grew up a rich white boy in full apartheid South Africa, and never matured beyond that. He has no ability for self-reflection or introspection. Which means he’s never wrong, so someone else must be to blame. So far, that’s included religious, racial, and sexual minorities. He’s only going to grow more deranged as time goes on.

    • Ocelot@lemmies.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      48
      ·
      1 year ago

      True. Lots of people are jumping on the new “Elon is a nazi” bandwagon though.

      What a world we live in where disagreeing with what an organization led or founded by someone jewish allegedly did or didn’t do gets you labeled as an anti-semite. I fail to see how anything here has anything to do with anyone being jewish.

      I still would like so badly to find out Elon is an anti-semite. It would be the icing on the cake for all the other batshit stiff he’s done. Does anyone know of evidence of this?

      • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        30
        ·
        1 year ago

        In December 2022, Twitter reinstated the account of notorious neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin (and then suspended him again this month), who has a warrant out for his arrest for ignoring a $14 million judgment against him for directing an antisemitic harassment campaign against a target.

        Twitter also reinstated the accounts of people who have incited violence or frequently posted hateful content:

        The Nation of Islam White nationalist Patrick Casey Misogynist Andrew Tate

        Antisemitic tweets directed at Jewish investor and philanthropist George Soros warranted its own category. He was mentioned more than any other person in our data, over 19,000 times, with tweets claiming he was a member of a hidden globalist, Jewish or “Nazi” world order.

        in May, Musk likened billionaire George Soros — a perennial boogeyman for the antisemitic right — to a supervillain, claiming that he “hates humanity.”

        Antisemitism on Twitter has more than doubled since Elon Musk took over the platform

        While jury selection in the trial of the Pittsburgh Tree of Life synagogue shooter continued on Wednesday, Musk used his platform to boost virulent antisemitic conspiracy theories—including some that the Pittsburgh suspect himself spread

        Musk also responded to tweets spreading other Soros conspiracy theories, including false claims that Soros, a Holocaust survivor, helped roundup Jews for the Nazis, and claims that Soros is somehow linked to the Rothschilds, an entirely separate antisemitic conspiracy theory about Jewish bankers which the Soros’ conspiracies have largely replaced.

        just days after Musk announced he was buying Twitter for $44 billion, he tweeted about the antisemitic conspiracy that Jews control the U.S. media, including a reference to Soros.

        https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/evaluating-twitters-policies-six-months-after-elon-musks-purchase

        https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/twitter-not-enforcing-its-policies-antisemitic-content

        https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/elon-musk-boosts-antisemitic-propaganda-twitter-anti-defamation-league-1234817008/

        https://theconversation.com/antisemitism-on-twitter-has-more-than-doubled-since-elon-musk-took-over-the-platform-new-research-201830

        https://www.vice.com/en/article/z3m443/elon-musk-george-soros-antisemitic-tweets

        • Ocelot@lemmies.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          30
          ·
          1 year ago

          I don’t want to make it sound like any racists/homophobes/anti-semites or any hateful people of any sort have any sort of place in modern society or deserve any respect but I think the argument is that even hateful speech is still free speech, and the argument is that the ADL is trying to suppress speech. If other hate groups want to latch on to that its their perogative but I don’t necessarily see how that might make Elon anti-Semetic.

          Just my two cents. Take it or leave it. Im going to stay out of this convo from here on out because Pro and Anti-elon as well as pro and anti racists are very vocal and opinionated and I know how these conversations usually end up.

          • Veraticus@lib.lgbt
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            16
            ·
            1 year ago

            Why does it matter that it’s free speech? Like congratulations that the government isn’t trying to literally arrest you for what you’re saying. That’s like the bare minimum.

            We have no obligation to accept all kinds of speech at all times. X, as a private platform, can make whatever rules it likes for the speech it allows on X. And Elon is allowing anti-Semitic speech while suppressing pro-trans speech.

            Like it’s pretty obvious what “free speech” means to him. And it isn’t actually free speech, it’s just prioritizing speech he likes. (Which, spoiler alert, is what all American free speech arguments boil down to.)

          • mateomaui@reddthat.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            14
            ·
            1 year ago

            As was previously pointed out, he’s boosting a hashtag being used by antisemitics to promote banning the main organization that monitors antisemitic activity.

            What about that isn’t clear for you?

          • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            Elon isn’t anti-semitic because he’s a free speech absolutist, he’s anti-semitic because he has personally engaged in anti-semitic behaviour. I provided a dearth of examples and sources of that in my comment posted an hour before the one you replied to, and I note that you haven’t responded my comment at all. Have you considered the possibility that you may have some kind of bias in this situation which prevents you from seeing it clearly?

      • Madison_rogue@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 year ago

        Mitläufer

        This is where we are with Elon Musk and X/Twitter. He’s a passive sympathizer because he allows the content. What makes matters worse is he’s trying to blame it on the ADL instead of taking responsibility for it.