cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options. Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you. Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
I don’t get this. 3rd party will never win. Ever. There are two real options.
People are voting third party because you believe there are only 2 real options.
Vote for the one that offers the best outcome for you.
Gotcha, we should vote for Claudia De La Crúz.
Not doing that is accepting that you are ok with the worst of the two, because you had a chance to keep them out of office and choose not to.
Both Trump and Harris are the worst options, that’s why we are going against them.
How is voting for her the best option. Literally all she can do is benefit the Republicans by pulling votes from the Dems. Hell, in Georgia they’ve literally ruled that votes for her won’t be counted even though she’s on the ballot.
Her winning the US Presidential election is less-likely than winning the power all 25 consecutive times by finding the winning ticket on the ground at random truck stops in Malaysia.
For a few reasons.
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If you have no red line in the sand, then that gives the Dems free reign to do whatever they please.
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It helps boost PSL’s platform, which is revolutionary, and therefore important to get new members
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If she gets more than 5% of the vote, then PSL gets better ballot access and public funding
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It helps delegitimize the electoral system.
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context matters. you have no idea what state many people live in. I, for example, live in a reliably blue stronghold. harris will win no matter how I vote. so I don’t vote for democrats when when there is a better option on the ballot.
There is no value in voting for a party that doesn’t support my values/interests. I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed, however I think she likely has a better moral compass and backbone than harris does. I’m giving harris until the end of the week to fix her positions on khan and ideally irsael, but i doubt she will so she wont be getting my vote.
I personally don’t like many of de la cruz’s policies, they are poorly constructed
Which policies do you believe are poorly constructed?
literally every single one she listed… she’s certainly not a unifying figure that socialism needs. she isnt dog whistling shes full throat fog horning and poorly.
The 100 largest corporations in America should be seized from their billionaire owners and turned into public property.
good luck. that’ll take years and won’t fly for a lot of people. nor will it fix the problem. all its doing is triggering an immediate immune response from the unthinking masses. Nor does it address daily issues working american’s are experiencing. I understand what shes going for, but she doesn’t know how to accomplish it effectively.
Overthrow the Dictatorship of the Rich — Build a Democracy That Serves the Working Class
sigh… same problem as above. removing the FBI and NSA will have little to no material impact on working americans.
End the Rule of Money and Lock Up the Corrupt Elite
yeah okay. again get what shes going for but non of that can be accomplished without a supportive congress. What to over throw the system? great I’m right there with you. but have an actual workable plan.
End All U.S. Aid to Apartheid Israel. End the Genocide and Free Palestine & Cut the Military Budget by 90% — Peace, Not War with China & Russia!
sigh. so completely cripple our economy, and trade one relatively friendly genocidal country for two unfriendly genocidal countries. sounds like a great plan.
End the war on black america.
sigh reparations, i get it i really do. but its just another aspect of the race war and sadly black americans are not yet populous enough to pull it off. could just as easily have said ‘build a social safety net to support working americans’
Defend Women’s rights, full equality for lgbtq people
again great cause, but lacks the acume to identify the levers to pull to make it a reality.
Save the planet from capitalism
sigh. again just isolating herself from many american’s who believe in capitalism.
So you just don’t like Socialism, I guess?
incorrect, Im a socialist. she just doesn’t know how to be effective at getting the change we all desire; and I doubt she’ll be good as a president. shes hurt and angry and lashing out. she should run locally for a governor position and prove she knows how to develop and build worker run cooperatives before trying her hand at the national stage.
the first step is following khan by breaking non-competes, then provide support and resources for worker run organizations.
“Everyone I disagree with is a Russian bot,” what a classic zinger
Great so now we can have a more certain Trump presidency. Why limit yourself to just one genocide when you can have this guy in power here too:
“How about allowing people to come to an open border, 13,000 of which were murderers, many of them murdered far more than one person, and they’re now happily living in the United States. You know now a murder, I believe this, it’s in their genes. And we got a lot of bad genes in our country right now,”
Biden already started the Lebanon genocide. You’re going to need to up that Trump talking point to three genocides.
Here’s a talking point for you, but from the Republican party’s policy platform:
DEPORT PRO-HAMAS RADICALS AND MAKE OUR COLLEGE CAMPUSES SAFE AND PATRIOTIC AGAIN
By “pro-Hamas” they mean all the free Palestine protestors.
Is that the third or the fourth genocide?
Based on the article, that’s very clearly what they want.
EDIT: anyone who’s downvoting me should try explaining why the Democratic mayor of a Muslim majority town that hates pride flags is endorsing Trump. Some people clearly don’t mind if Trump wins.
deleted by creator
The single issue: genocide
Why are you sheepdogging for genociders? You have always had the option of saying nothing and educating yourself instead.
deleted by creator
What is more important than supporting and normalizing genocide?
deleted by creator
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide
There could not be a candidate this describes more than Harris. You know, from the Biden-Harris administration behind the genocide happening right now. The one supplying bombs to burn refugee children alive. Have you heard their screams?
I am told Democratic voters are empathetic and strategic. But all I see is racist normalization of genocide and toeing the party line.
find new targets for genocide
That’s a Dem specialty! They have a knack for stoking and supporting genocides. Heck, Obama got one started in Yemen. Even NGOs were saying a vhikd was killed every minute for years by this. Why do you think they are so resilient and steadfast against this genocide and Western attempts to free up Zionist shipping lanes? Did you even know what was done to Yemen?
and turn the country into a dictatorship?
Given that the current “system” has you shilling for genocide you should already question whether you live in a democracy.
Though all of this lesser evilism is also premised on nobody remembering that Trump was already president for 4 years and it was basically the same shot as under Biden. In fact, Biden came in from the right, normalizing the pandemic and slashing benefits for the public, then did the usual, “I’m just a widdle president I can’t do nothin’” act when the SC overturned Roe v. Wade. Ah, but now that there is a genocide to support, unlimited billions for Israel, don’t worry he can bypass Congress. Do you see how the system functions? Do you feel enfranchised? How much less enfranchised were you under Trump?
They’re on the same team. Why do you think Harris’ team is celebrate endorsements from Republican war criminals? A human that cared would spit in their faces and announce charges. You are not provided with such an option for your mainstream party “choices”. They laugh at their committed voters, I’ve seen it in person.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
No, that’s the way you are told it works by your masters so that you work for them instead of against them. You’ll notice that I am not voting for any genociders. Did I break reality!? Or just deviate from a focus group-tested party talking point?
It’s like you’re mentally incapable of reading a comment and responding to the words in it.
I responded directly to what they said re: there being multiple issues they want to weigh. That was their response up me challenging complicity in genocide and asking why the person I was responding to was sheepdogging for genociders. They are trying yo be euphemistic and retreat to the thought-terminsting clichés that reinforce complicity in genocide, which also means avoiding even using the word. So I recontextualized their attempt to decontextualize while still directly addressing it.
Please feel free to tell me which specific parts you would like to see addressed or responded to. I certainly already replied to the first sentence, which was the main point of deflection.
well I’m gonna say… if enabling genocide doesn’t make you a single issue voter I suspect you’re morally deficient of an individual. Frankly while genocide is enough Harris has a number of issues you’re free to overlook by claiming people are ‘single issue’ just because a thread is covering a particular topic.
- doesn’t support labor. (won’t commit to keeping khan, will break a strike whenever convenient)
- won’t be effective at reducing inflation/cost of living.
- won’t be effective at humane immigration.
- won’t be effective at health care reform. both at a cost and medicinally via weed/psychedelics legalization.
There is no difference because Harris knows her good little gooses steppers will vote for her no matter what she does or who she kills.
I mean their single issue is Harris supports murdering their friends and family via her Israel proxy. If you’re going to have a single issue to decide your vote I can’t think of a better one.
Personally Harris lost my vote for two main reasons:
- her continued support of genocide. while its true israel has a right to defend itself, it doesn’t have a right to support of the US while doing so. we have laws on the books for this precise reason and they need to be enforced.
- her unwillingness to commit to supporting labor. won’t commit to khan, will likely happily break a striking union whenever she can as evidenced by the train union and wouldn’t have ‘changed a thing’ comment.
There are a bunch of other things I could overlook but not those two. I jokingly sent my friend a message yesterday.
God it amazes me to watch a candidate who is part of a historically low approval admin go ‘im not wrong its the voters who are wrong’. repeatedly.
my friends response? ‘I can’t tell which candidate you’re talking about’ which was precisely my point.
Do you consider war crimes, mass murderand sending in our troops to assist in a far right wing colonial war – all done with our tax dollars to be a “single issue” like… school vouchers or Amtrak funding? It seems a very dishonest or at best an inaccurate method to weigh issues against each other.
If this is a joke, it’s a very bad one. If it isn’t, good luck on pulling your head out of your ass.
single issue voters
the single issue is the eradication of their families and friends
yeah man I wonder why they don’t support that
Because Trump who literally said Muslims should wear a “Special ID at all times” back in 2015 is obviously gonna be much better…
Biden/Harris aren’t even giving them the chance to wear the special IDs, they wiped out Gaza and took out a few churches and Christians in the process too
Trump meant that for Muslims living in America.
Additionally, Trump has talked about wanting to use nuclear weapons in Gaza multiple times. So I don’t know why you think he’s “better” for the region
No one said he is better but neither are Democrats, both are equally awful for the region.
Some have falsely claimed he wants a ceasefire, while he has talked about “ending the problem quickly”, he has clarified he means by blowing Palestine straight to Hell by throwing everything America’s got at it.
Which is what’s happening already under Biden.
Read the article. Maybe half or more are voting third party, they hate trump and kamala.
The other, from one of the interviews, the last four years of Democrat led politics has literally been the worst in their lives for both themselves living in america, and for their friends and families who live in the middle east.
Assuming a democrat leader is best for everyone is part of the problem. There are groups of people who suffer under Democrat leadership, and ignoring them is just frustrating them.
The other, from one of the interviews, the last four years of Democrat led politics has literally been the worst in their lives for both themselves living in america, and for their friends and families who live in the middle east.
Were they not alive from 2001 to 2008?
With all they’ve been through, at least they have you to tell them how to feel and vote, and which traumas are worse than others.
/s
Careful, you might cut yourself on that edge.
Politics is all edges since our government got completely taken over by bribes from war criminals, so we’re all walking around with some small cuts lately.
I was and I voted for Kerry in 2004 because of it. It is much worse now though!
And they should know that the Electoral College means that this only helps Trump, who in 2015 wanted Muslims in America to wear “Special IDs”
You know, one of the big third party candidates is Jill Stein. If you are one of those pro Palestine supporters who hates Israel… Stein is Jewish. She might be one of those Jews who hates Israel, but she’s still Jewish. I don’t mind her being Jewish, but I do mind her being vaccine skeptical, a Kremlin devotee, among other things.
Thankfully you can write whatever name you wish in that box. feel free to exercise your right to remain uncommitted.
This is going to be such a leopard ate my face moment. Do they really think the Republicans are going to do anything? They’re just going to drop some bombs and call it a day. At least with the Democrats there’s a slight chance.
They are voting third party, usually for Stein, or Crúz.
Correct, but they’re doing so because they believe it ensure Harris won’t win. They aren’t considering the fact that if Harris loses, Trump wins. It’s a stupid and not only pointless but dangerous decision.
Third party voters 100% understand that Trump wins if Harris loses. Their solidarity with Palestinians and refusal to support the Democrats unconditionally when they are committing genocide is driving them to third party, not a hope that third party will win.
Oh I totally understand that. Not the absurdity is to what end? If a Republican is elected and they take the Senate, then it’ll be more than just giving Israel supplies. The GOP is 100% behind Israel and will be drones in the air and potential boots on the ground within days.
I think you’re looking at the Democrats as “good but misguided” and Republicans as “frothing evil fascists,” but the tragic truth is that they are all businessmen and women. They serve their corporate donors and economic interests. The genocide in Palestine isn’t moral, but economic, Israel helps establish hard power in the region for the US that secures the Petro-Dollar, which is how the US maintains control over international financial Capital and brutally exploits the Global South via Imperialism through brutal IMF loans.
Both parties are complicit and aligned with respect to Israel.
The only way out of this is revolution, so I recommend joining an org like PSL or FRSO.
I don’t think there are any good guys here. However, the Democrats are more likely to be swayed away from the fight than Republicans. At the very least, less deaths will occur with Democrats in power than Republicans.
Please answer why you believe
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Democrats are more likely to be swayed, and
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Less deaths will occur with Democrats in power than Republicans.
Do you think the IDF uses the bipartisan weapon shipments any differently? What kind of materialist analysis are you doing, is it just vibes?
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Oh boy, that’ll teach 'em…you know, the party where they absolutely listened to the people who didn’t want Hillary just because “it was her turn”.
yup…this’ll fix it!
If anything handing over the presidency to Trump would be incentive for Democrats to move further to the genocidal right.
He hopes that Trump, on the other hand, uses his business acumen to bring down the cost of the products he sells in his store, many of which are imported from overseas. “Trump is not perfect, but we have no choice,” he says.
Hashim’s other major concern is Gaza, where more than 42,000 people have been killed by Israeli attacks. “The No 1 reason [to not vote for Harris] is that she is supporting Israel 100%,” he said.
I don’t understand how someone this stupid is able to run a successful business. The high price of goods now is completely due to republican policies that have taken the brakes off of corporate price gouging and Trump has stated that not only is he 100% supportive of Israel but he will happily supercharge their genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza.
Also, the naivety that Trimp won’t eventually turn on him:
First, they came for the Haitians…
Oh they’re really gonna love how Trump handles Arabs
It’s like the trolley problem, except instead of the other track having fewer people, it has more, and it just loops back around to run over the people on the first track anyway. We should have sent the trolley on a completely different route decades ago.
Strawmen belong in fields, not comment sections.
Also: does every ml user have an allergy to pragmatic problem solving?
Yes, yes they do. Pretty sure it’s either a bot farm or dumb ass undergrads…
Ah yes, Leftists must be naive or bots, there’s no such thing as an intelligent leftist
“pragmatic” problem solving is killing all undocumented migrants to solve the housing and work shortages in the US.
Pragmatic problem solving was the excuse for the necessity of the Holocaust. Pragmatic problem solving is making black people count as two thirds a white person to appease fascists.
Pragmatic problem solving is a liberal appointing Hitler chancellor so commies don’t get power and Nazis stop doing violence.
Pragmatic problem solving is behind the worst human atrocities. Let’s not pretend it’s ever been good.
No average dem is fantasizing about Republicans hurting people. This is nonsense, pathetic, and textbook straw man, all your word salad doesn’t change this. We get it, you like Trump, stop with all the games.
E: Lol people really seem to think the average dem wants people to be hurt to the point where they fantasize about it. The same side fighting for health rights, trans rights, etc. While the other side is literally waving Nazi flags in the open. I get it, you want to vote third party. But the reality is 3rd party won’t win, you have an ability to impact the outcome and move the needle in the right direction but overly rigged morals will result in you not helping anyone at all when you could have.
“We get it, you like Trump, stop with all the games.”
Pot meets kettle. So I guess all of that talk about “strawmen” was just projection. Okay. I see what you did there.
Saying some BS like a group of people fantasizes about people getting hurt, yeah that sounds very on brand for Trump and people who follow him.
Also, assuming who someone is voting for is not a straw man lol, might wanna look up the term. And when someone says being pragmatic is bad, yeah, sounds like a Trump voter. Pragmatic literally means: dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations. Look it up.
If you think that’s bad then you’re literally living in a fantasy world of theories and what ifs. Kinda like his tariffs idea or injecting bleach, or a million other stupid ideas he’s had.
Lightor at this point I dont even need to read your comments, I just read you name and autmatically skip to downvote.
I see you are now trying to construct a new straw man. You might want to look up the term “projection.” Go ahead, look it up.
buddy, half of the comments on this post are libs fantasizing about mass deportations, and acting smug the whole time. they cannot wait to say “I told you so” when the camps get built. stop kidding yourself.
Lol half the comments? Really? I just scrolled and don’t see 1 in 2 comments being about fantasizing about mass deportation. Almost like you’re being just as hyperbolic as the comic is lol.
No average dem is fantasizing about Republicans hurting people
You were in this thread though, lmao.
Yah I was, and I’m not fantasizing about hurting anyone.
You absolutely were.
This is an article about why Arab-Americans are abandoning the Democrats for endorsing and materially supporting genocide, and the response is “Trump would be bad too!” Yea, of course he would be, Harris is so bad that she isn’t a solution either.
Also: does every ml user have an allergy to pragmatic problem solving?
What do you mean by this?
Lol wait, this was already posted this thread? Is this just a bot account?
You think they’re voting for trump? If so, you’re even dumber than you think they are
I mean, it’s not like there’s any other viable candidate. I don’t like the two party system but it’s what we have and by voting any other way than Harris, it gives advantage to Trump.
Her shitty policies and attitude toward the genocide of people in the Levant is what’s giving trump an advantage!
Her shitty attitude towards people calling on her not to support the genocide is what’s giving trump an advantage.
She had it in the bag when she called him weird but you can always rely on a democrat to steal defeat from the jaws of victory!
And you know for sure that democrats are going to turn on minorities and leftists once she loses the election rather than face up to the fact that they did everything themselves to avoid winning it.
passenger 1 - “Oh crud. Our boat is sinking. We are in great peril indeed.”
captain - “We’re going to be okay everyone, just get into this liferaft.”
Pulls out liferaft with a huge fucking hole in it.
passenger 1 - “Is this the only liferaft we’ve got?”
captain - “Yes, but don’t worry about the hole, it won’t sink and we’ll be fine I promise.”
passenger 2 - “Hey guys, I have a liferaft over here that doesn’t have a hole in it.”
captain - “Guys, that’s not important right now. Our boat is sinking.”
passenger 1 - “Eh, I guess I’ll go in that one.”
passenger 3 - “Sure me too, captain says we should - wait where’s captain?”
Looks up, in the distance sees captain floating away on functional liferaft.
captain - “So long fuckers!”
Passengers board remaining liferaft, liferaft sinks, the passengers die.
Where you fucked up:
passenger 2 - “Hey guys, I have a liferaft over here that doesn’t have a hole in it.”
You can’t reach the other one with no holes.
One of 2 things is happening with this comment.
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You actually don’t know how FPTP voting works.
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You’re pretending to not know how FPTP voting works.
Captain represents capitalists falsely promising to fix our problems
Broken liferaft is the false promise (i.e. voting is going to fix our problems despite genocide, imperialism, deporting illegal immigrants, hurting homeless people, fracking, etc)
Fixed liferaft is what actually will save us (i.e. food, housing, healthcare, etc)
While everyone is hyperfocused on who to vote for, the capitalists take the rest of the food/housing/healthcare and everyone else dies.
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This except the raft has a bunch of holes in it, is covered in blood, and by setting foot in it you are implicitly giving your consent to fund a genocide on the other side of the world, and then the raft sinks anyways in the last panel.
edit: Bright side, the water may not actually be that deep. At least it’s certainly not as deep as the peoples’ whom you would have sacrificed by getting on the raft. That’s just what people tell you, but they also told you the raft would be perfectly seaworthy in its battered state.
This is question-begging a number of critical elements, e.g. that the “rafts” cannot be influenced by “passenger” input, and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
We can do it too:
You’re in a runaway train accelerating toward a cliff and the break only really stops acceleration, it doesn’t decelerate. You can sit in the engine room and hold down the break, and you’ll live longer, but you aren’t changing the fundamental dynamic of the situation, which ends in your eventual death. Conversely, you can jump off the train, surely injuring yourself, possibly crippling yourself, maybe even killing yourself, but it’s the only potential way to change the dynamic of being doomed to fall off the cliff.
Does this prove anything? No, it’s just a model of how some people think of the problem, not an argument. It would be really obnoxious and disingenuous to present it as an argument.
Maybe we should see if there’s any point of agreement, one step at a time.
Do you agree that either the Dem or Rep nominee will be the next president?
False dichotomy and incorrect question. It doesn’t matter who wins the next presidency. the general outcomes will be the same.
will both candidates break strikes when convenient to their corporate overlords? yes. will both candidates continue to drain our economy by not reforming health care/holding corporations accountable? yes. (as demonstrated by harris’ unwillingness to commit to keeping khan) will both candidates continue to support israel wholeheartedly? yes.
the only different is the speed of the decline. frankly I’m done emotionally suffering because the national democrats are shit people. you’re welcome to your positions and beliefs I just have no interest in supporting them when all they do is cause more harm to my communities. I also live in a blue bastion, harris’ will win here regardless of my actions and my local government will more or less prevent the worst of trumps nonsense for my community.
When I said:
and that there is only this one, totalizing crossroad of literal, immediate survival.
This was me saying “It frames things as though losing the election means that all is lost and there won’t be future elections.”
As I’m pretty sure I explained to you an hour ago in another thread, I think it’s an acceptable loss for the Democrats to lose an election to put pressure on them to change or else to establish that they are more loyal to the US project of Israel than they are to trying to win elections or do what voters want or anything like that.
I don’t proactively want Trump to win, but I find it totally acceptable since what sets him apart from other Republicans is not that he is especially fascist in the substance of what he is likely to do. It might actually be possible to browbeat me if we had a Tom “throne of Chinese skulls” Cotton or someone as the nominee, he actually represents something that could be totalizing to me, but Trump is just kind of a deranged grifter and Vance is a more even-keel grifter.
So to save us both time, no, I don’t think we agree on any points. I wasn’t commenting toward that end, I merely wanted to say that the comic is unhelpful.
Do you agree that either the Dem or Rep nominee will be the next president?
Do you agree that theres no excuse possible for aiding in a far right wing genocide?
I will note your liberal dem in this comic also didn’t get in the raft through their own inability to take the correct path regardless of the choices of others. which I think is pretty spot on for individuals like yourself.
I think that’s a statement about how other people’s shitty voting decisions affect everyone.
Believe me, if I could just choose the president (life raft) myself with no other input, I would.
na, it just demonstrates the yours/the artists inability to act independently from a group. what have you done to change the voting system? probably nothing. so take your nonsense elsewhere.
A more accurate metaphor would be if the raft was uninflated and full of holes.
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil than the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
You always vote against the fascist and the guy who staged a coup. It’s that simple.
This is correct. There are plenty of actions to be taken outside voting, but voting is quick, easy, and the bare fucking minimum. Vote and do whatever else you think you should do. If you don’t vote (or just throw it away) then you’re complicit in whatever happens.
So by that logic, if you vote for Harris and the genocide continues then you’re complicit in whatever happens.
In fact, if you voted for Joe Biden, you’re already complicit in a genocide.
Sure, and you have to accept your actions and your reasoning for them, and there are very good reasons to support Harris instead of Trump. Doing nothing and pretending you aren’t complicit doesn’t actually make it true. Your gotcha question is only appropriate for children.
Not supporting Harris is not the same as supporting Trump. Hope this helps!
Your understanding is solid for not being an American. You’re not missing anything substantial-- people who are voting 3rd party think that the “dems need to learn” and that the dems can’t do whatever they want so their vote is supposed to be a punishment. But as you point out that if they really cared about this issue then they would vote for Harris because trump will do worse on this issue and all around. The time to make changes to our political system is not when you vote for president, but in the years leading up to that.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons. It sucks that our political system is what it is but if you knowingly vote for anything other than the candidate promising not-fascism, then you are supporting fascism.
I just hope enough democrats understand this. I’m not happy with gaza either but our country is still recovering from the first shit show presidency of Trump, and fascists are closely watching this election.
In other words, people voting for 3rd party or Trump over this issue are morons
incorrect you’re missing context of reliably blue states. I most certainly dont need to vote for democrats and can essentially do what I want w/ respect to the presidential ticket.
All the nonsense from the liberal idiots in the democratic party miss this critical contextual bit of information. I happily vote 3rd party whenever there is one that aligns more closely with my goals. its just rare one does; because it simply doesn’t matter in my state for the outcome.
My ballot typically goes:
- 3rd party for pres
- dem/independents for most local positions
all this blue no matter who are just brain dead lunacy by the party is essentially: The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final and most essential command.
Hopefully some day we’ll be able to have reasonable conversations about the toxicity of the democratic party but we just are not there yet and unfortunately the Ukrainians and Palestinians are paying the price in blood and harris doesnt have the backbone to challenge her corporate owners. Biden lost my support when he broke the train union strike. I believe he and harris would have broken the port workers strike as well if it wasn’t a month before the election.
things that prevent me from voting for harris:
- wont enforce the leahy laws with israel. israel absolutely does have a right to defend itself, it doesn’t have a right to be supported by the US tax payers. if the MIC wants money there is a far more moral war going on we can increase support for. (HUGE red flag)
- wont commit to keeping Ms khan. (HUGE red flag)
- i don’t trust her w/ respect to union support. I believe she’ll break unions just like biden did. which is why he lost my support.
- her continuous attempts to gaslight the american people over biden’s mental decline makes her untrustworthy as an individual.
until then I’ll continue advocating for and campaigning for election reform and primarying useless democrats. She could probably swing my vote if she commits to khan and never breaking a strike as those are important to the health of our country and economy but at this point its clear she wont shift.
I’m glad you took one sentence out of context to tell me why youre not a moron. Good for you… the context of the article is a swing state. While your ticket may not matter, in your opinion, telling this to other people is in direct support for facism. Gtfo
Edit: oh and i missed that its a 2 day account only commenting on this shit. Say hello to Russia for me and welcome to my block list
you’re upset I deconstructed your entire position in a couple of paragraphs and think burying your head in the sand will resolve the obvious problems with your positions. (hint: they won’t)
learn how to influence your politicians. voting for them when they dont support your interests doesn’t work. being afraid of their opposition doesn’t work. What have you done to fix FPTP voting issues? What have you done to prevent genocides?
I only quoted a single sentence you’re entire post was predicated on it. you’re the only moron because you lack contextual awareness; unlike the Palestinians in swing states. Good on them and I wish them the best of luck, I’m rooting for them and emailing my congress critters so they know that harris doesnt have my support is she continues her israel non-sense and issues with khan.
edit: seems like the pressure is working now harris just needs to come out and say she’ll continue the enforcement of leahy and a cessation of hostilities. keep up the good work people few days left.
It’s more of a difference in practical values. At what point does the “lesser evil” itself become intolerable evil? Some people insist that you should vote for Hitler over 101% Hitler, that there is no intolerable level as long as there is a miniscule difference. Others have firm red lines in the sand, like genocide, where they advocate for abandoning them and pushing as hard as you can, even advocating for moves outside the electoral system like revolution.
So to put this in more practical terms, one would neither vote for Hitler or 101% Hitler, and instead vote for The Other Person who Isn’t Much Hitler At All, or abstain or something, and protest and take action in other ways?
The “correct” answer is to vote for “Not Hitler” and join a revolutionary org, such as FRSO or PSL in the US.
Which candidate who opposes both Russia and Israel’s genocide has a path to the presidency? Legitimately, fully feasible path in 3 weeks to get this candidate to have 270 electoral votes?
The point isn’t to win the presidency, but to show the votes the Dems threw away by being genocidal, and again, joining revolutionary orgs.
So throw the country to the fascists polluting our homes, destroying our education system, rallying up people who enjoy committing hate crimes to other Americans. It’s the Democrats fault we will repeat the events of 2016.
Got it.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, electing democrats doesn’t push fascism back.
This is limiting the scope of thought to four years.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever, whereas if Trump wins it means four more years of genocide but the democrats will have learnt they cannot ignore the left.
In the short term Trump will be more damaging, but in the long term it is very debatable which is worse.
Democrats winning means genocide becomes fully normalized forever,
Even more so if the guy who openly said murder is a genetic predisposition wins.
Who for the record is Donald J Trump.
Genocide is already normalized for republicans. If democrats get to normalize it as well, there will be no non-genocide option in 2028.
When you never draw a red line you signal that they can keep pushing the boundaries of evil.
Hmm. I can understand this perspective. I guess its a bit tough. As a trans person I would find it very hard to do anything that isn’t actively working against trump being in power, because if he gets in power it’s very likely that my life will be in danger (if I was an American). But at the same time, as mentioned before, it wouldn’t be an easy sell for me to be voting pro-harris.
I guess your scenario doesn’t mean you’re going to vote for trump, just that you’ll vote third party or spoil your ballot?
Directly voting for Trump will have the opposite effect. It will show democrats they should be more like Republicans because everyone was voting for Trump.
By putting the votes in a visible place (a third party), the democrats will observe they are missing out on a lot of votes which are directly cast for a left wing agenda. And instead of Dick Cheney they might show up with a left winger in their next campaign to win over those third party voters.
Donald Trump will not be a benefit in the short term. But rewarding democrats for only appealing to right wing voters will not be a benefit in the long term. They will shift even more to the right in 2028.
This group is the single greatest gift to the 2024 trump presidency and he doesn’t know it yet!
Harris? I agree, she’s torpedoing a very easy campaign.
At least trump will be a great ally to Palestinians!
Course not, the genocidal US Empire needs to be overthrown. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
Good bye frying-pan, hello fire.
Okay, but, abandon her for whom exactly? Just not vote? Vote 3rd party? I am not going to say Harris is perfect, but this is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Many of the candidates from alternative parties are anti-genocide.
The article says Trump directly. Read the interviews and about his new campaign office in hamtramck.
Third Party, tyically, that’s what most anti-genocide groups are advocating for.
What third party? David Duke just endorsed Jill Stein.
Funny enough, that’s exactly who they’re planning on voting for, too! The way they put it, voting for Stein is their way of not voting for Trump but ensuring he beats Harris.
Shut the fuck up with this
Any anti-genocide candidate, Claudia De La Crúz is best but Jill Stein is often pushed as an alternative.
It’s important to note that Duke said he supports Stein because Stein is against funding Israel, and David Duke hates Jewish people, he doesn’t care about genocide. He supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 but said Trump is too supportive of Israel for 2024.
You mean the same Jill Stein that was endorsed by former KKK leader, seems like a solid choice…
Its like lemmy world is just democrat bots that respond with these canned attack responses any time Jill stein is mentioned
I wanna try, I wanna try
^^^Jill ^^^Stein
I understand, you asked me who the anti-genocide groups were supporting, not a vetted list of everyone who has come out in favor of each third party.
Didn’t ask you anything actually lol.
Edit: This comment I will forever save to show the group think and mindless nature of lemmy politics. I simple called out that I didn’t ask anything and I’m being downvoted for stating that fact and nothing else. Goes to show you, facts don’t matter to these people.
Ah, you were a different user jumping in, my bad. Either way, that’s what was asked originally.
My personal opinion? Claudia De La Crúz all the way.
It’s important to note that Duke endorse Stein because she supports ending support for Israel, and Duke hates Jewish people, he doesn’t care about genocide at all.
Dick Cheney endorsed Kamala.
Neither of these facts alone necessarily implicate the candidates. You really have to consider the context. Being endorsed by someone hardly means you keep their company.
You were just so excited to use this talking point that you couldn’t be bothered to note that he was responding to it in the very comment you used it on.
I’m not a Jill Stein voter, but I dont think she can control who endorses her so it doesnt make a lot of sense holding that particular thing against her.
Is there a top down order of bad-faith Democrat talking points distributed every day?
Nope just people out here trying to keep conversations in the realm of reality.
David Duke supports Jill Stein for one single reason: because Jill Stein does not support Israel and Trump does.
Duke even reluctantly endorsed Stein because she is Jewish.
And Stein called him trash and disavowed him.
If you call Jill Stein a white nationalist because of Duke you call every single person who does not support Israel a white nationalist
It is nice to hear she disavowed him. But no it’s not like his attempt to associate with her makes her racist too. It’s just a reminder that she has less chance of winning this election than you do. And citing morals to vote for the party that has transparently turned itself into nothing more than a spoiler is just ridiculous. It’s like rooting for the outfield fans in the home run zone in baseball. (If they lean over and catch it, it’s a home run.)
Stupid motherfuckers.
Oh look, anti-Arab racism from liberals already
Do you think a Trump win will end better for them? Shit, do you think a Trump win will end better for anyone?
Go fuck yourself. People like you will hand him a victory.
I think calling Arab-Americans stupid for refusing to vote for genocide is racist. Harris is handing Trump a victory because she can’t cease US support for Israel.
I don’t think anyone is calling anyone stupid for calling for an end to the genocide. But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
Oh and btw… I was banned from world news. LOL.
But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
No one thinks this
Meaning these people are consciously assisting continuing what they believe is a genocide abroad AND making things worse here too?
Or do they not understand FPTP voting?
As so many Harris-voting lemmitors have instructed me, stopping the genocide is not on the effective ballot as-presented, so no, they are not assisting continuing what is absolutely a genocide. The goal is that they either pressure Harris to not be a ghoul, because they presume she cares about winning more than aiding genocide (this is most likely false) or, if Harris sticks to her guns and either loses or wins by such slim margins that it makes the Dem winning next election without stopping Israel much more hazardous, they (the Muslim/Arab voters) can extract concessions, because even electoral politics doesn’t end with one election cycle, and some strategies aimed at maximizing some long term result can introduce a risk or even a guarantee of short-term costs.
I don’t believe, like I think those voters do, that Dems would trade Israel slaughtering with impunity even for a guaranteed victory, but I think them demonstrating that unwillingness has its own value, since the DNC needs to be brought down. I don’t expect you to agree to this and am not terribly interested in persuading you, I’m just offering an explanation.
Virtually no one thinks Trump will stop the genocide. You’re just strawmaning.
Then why not vote for the other people, who will possibly make it a slightly less bad genocide? What’s wrong with less bad?
You’d have to ask them. If your family or the families of people in your community were being slaughtered by the incumbent administration, you might discover you have a red line after all. Fortunately for you, you’ll probably never really know.
There was a commenter calling Arab-American voters stupid for abandoning Harris.
Well that is stupid. People can be stupid from all corners of the globe.
The knee jerk response from lefties is that any insult or criticism of people who are members of a minority is racist, regardless of if it has anything to do with race (or race adjacent).
I think anyone that is not a billionaire that is not voting for Harris is a fucking moron. My views aren’t limited to Arab-Americans but I guess they can feel great about their virtue signaling while they’re in Trump’s deportation line getting sent to who knows where.
Yeah… I’ve heard better Lowkeys.
I called white christians stupid motherfuckers for voting for Trump for what they believed were good reasons.
Was that racist?
When you are faced with high numbers of marginalized people refusing to vote for candidates contributing to the genocide of friends, relatives, and people of a similar heritage, and your response is that they are “stupid,” rather than trying to understand why they are acting in that manner, you assert yourself as more “enlightened,” and the marginalized people as uniquely stupid. That is why it is racist.
Hamtramck is run by a bigoted shit stain mayor. As welcoming as I want to be to immigrants, don’t bring that sexist, homophobic shit into my neighborhood. Go ahead and vote against Harris, but don’t come complaining when Trump deports your family.
This is the kind of meme that talks past you, degrades you, and then will complain when not responded to.
The meme is not abusive but it does describe a cruel and illogical behavior rife in this thread.
A behavior in support of genocide, no less.
Interesting, this was exactly my mindset on voting at age 10 or so. Guess some people never gets out of that phase?
